January 2019 has been a busy month for Porsche insurance valuations and market discussions activity. Porsche 964 prices have popped up in conversation several times. As serious buyers seem to be gathering data and preparing to compete for what pops up for sale during 2019 and insurance valuations for standard Carrera 2 models in good order now touching £60k, this year could be an interesting one for 964 prices.
Porsche 964 Production Numbers
Manufactured from 1989 to 1994, the Porsche 964 had a comparatively short production life versus its predecessors. The model years spanned a global recession, so sales were relatively low. The German publication, Deutsche Autos seit 1990 (Eberhard Kittler) gives global Porsche 964 production totals for volume models as follows:
Model
Total
964 C2 Coupe
18219
964 C2 Cabriolet
11013
964 C2 Targa
3534
964 C2 Cabrio Turbo-Look
1532
964 C2 Speedster
936
964 C4 Coupe
13353
964 C4 Cabriolet
4802
964 C4 Targa
1329
964 C4 Jubilee Coupe
911
964 Turbo 3.3
3660
964 Turbo 3.6
1437
964 Carrera RS Coupe (3.6)
2282
A document put together in the early 2000s by the Porsche Club Turbo Register of the time is said to show that just 130 RHD 3.3 Turbos and only 42 RHD 3.6 Turbos were sold in the UK. I have not checked this data but it would not surprise me, given the scale of the recession at the time and the astronomical cost new of the Turbo models.
However, with both 964 Turbo and 930 prices retreating from the highs of 2015/16 and no sign that values have settled as yet, buyers are wary of these models. Instead, most potential buyers I speak with are considering standard C2 and C4 Coupes. Good examples of both are in short supply.
Pistonheads currently has 96 ads listed under the heading of 964 for sale. Removing the non-964s and silly POA ads gets us down to 64. If we look solely at narrow body cars being sold in the UK with an advertised asking price, then here is a summary of what is available as at January 30, 2019:
Porsche 964 C2/C4 Cabriolet (manual plus Tiptronic)
13
Porsche 964 C2/C4 Targa (manual plus Tiptronic)
4
Porsche 964 C2/C4 Coupe Manual
8
Porsche 964 C2/C4 Coupe Tiptronic
3
Distilling the stock available on what is probably the biggest advertising portal for these cars in the UK to solely non-RS narrow body 964 models, we end up with a total of 28 cars, less than half of which are Coupe models. Just 8 of the 28 cars are Coupes with a manual transmission and several of those cars are either modified or optimistically priced, such as the 66k-mile C2 Coupe for sale by an OPC at £80k. This reduces the choice even further.
The low supply creates a problem for buyers. Low supply pushes prices up, but the general market trend is still downward, as the investors who were fuelling the spiralling prices cool their spending or spread their asset portfolios across other brands or hobbies and the classic Porsche market unwinds due to lower demand.
Potential buyers are therefore faced with a gamble on what the future holds for 964s. Will low supply and persistent demand keep things as they are, or, faced with an entry cost already higher than other air-cooled options, will buyers eventually move on to different 911 model lines including well-priced 997s, causing the micro-market to capitulate and bring 964 prices down with a bump? Hence the conversations this month with potential buyers and a number of potential sellers.
If a 964 Coupe is your must-have 911, then you are not alone: many others share your desire. While the supply of air-cooled cars in January tends to be lower than later in the year, there is a marked preponderance of soft tops and Tiptronic Coupes amongst the available stock. This is probably a true reflection of what is available in the UK and may not shift to any great extent as the season gets started.
As the low supply supports Coupe prices (within reason) – particularly for the holy grail of a low mileage 964 C2 manual Coupe – buyers will have to decide whether the 964 is ultimately worth the current premium over a well preserved 3.2 Carrera Coupe or a nicely priced 993.
No doubt the 964 makes a fun car to drive when modified in the usual ways, but the £55-60k start price on a decent 964 Coupe is a fair chunk of cash for most of us. I can’t say that I would opt for an average 964 at this price point given the available alternatives if investment was a priority, but it will be interesting to see how 964 market trends play out through 2019.
Ferdinand blogs my freelance adventure with Porsche at the centre. To support the blog or engage with me in other ways, you can:
Getting back into the blog flow for 2019 was not helped by the failure of my much-loved Macbook Pro last week. If you know someone who can pull email folders from an encrypted SSD with a damaged operating system, drop me a line. Apple’s Support team say it can’t be done but a local data recovery place managed to get 300GB of data off the drive this morning. Sadly no email folders as yet, but some clever person must exist who can do this.
Anyway, while I was off-blog waiting for a new Macbook Pro to arrive, we had some notable Porsche sales with lots of interesting data: more of this later. One sale in Phoenix, Arizona set a new world record for the 2010 Porsche 997 Sport Classic, when RM Sotheby’s relieved a lucky buyer of half a million pounds ($654,000) for the privilege of owning a 150-mile example.
Half a million pounds for a Sport Classic will leave a lot of people scratching their heads. Yes it is rare, and this was low mileage, and prices at the first Porsche sales of the year are often a little bit barmy, but that sort of money buys a lot of Porsche alternatives that can be driven. Odds are this purchase was to bolster an already substantial collection.
What is a Sport Classic?
First shown at the 2009 Frankfurt Motor Show, the Porsche 911 Sport Classic was one of several limited edition models built on the Gen 2 997 platform (Speedster being another). An upgraded 3.8-litre engine with Power Kit equipped the car with over 400 horsepower to offer to the road gods through a six-speed manual transmission. The 250-unit Sport Classic edition also featured Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes and PASM as standard.
Several styling features set the Sport Classic apart. These included a Double-Dome roof, a ducktail engine cover and that evergreen Sport Classic Grey paint. The wheels were replica Fuchs (cast in a factory in Italy if memory serves). The Fuchs people told me that they were a bit ticked off that genuine forged Fuchs alloy wheels were not part of the recipe for maximum Sport Classic authenticity and that it was all down to price.
I was not that enthralled by the Sport Classic when it first came out and didn’t chase a test drive. The closest I ever got to driving one was in a feature on a replica that myself and Alisdair Cusick were commissioned to write for a 911 magazine sometime in 2010. Built by a Porsche place in Essex, the conversion was based on a well used Gen 1 997 C2, so not the widebody shell that the real one was built around. Thus the Sport Classic wheels (bought from Porsche) did not quite fit the arches properly and the bubble roof was a bit of a challenge. It had the right look side-on from a hundred feet away, but each step closer made it slightly less convincing, until you were standing next to it and looking through the window at tired leather and a Tiptronic shifter.
However wide of the mark that replica was, at least the owner drove it for a few thousand miles, which is more than the owner of the nigh-on brand new Sport Classic sold by RM Sotheby’s did. With just 150 miles on the clock, the car had been stored in California all of its life, so was offered in pristine condition. It sold for $654,000 including premium: a figure which made at least three people very happy. If you were thinking you might fancy a Sport Classic some time, you are probably not one of the three.
A quick surf through eBay last night showed some cheap classic Porsches for sale including this 1984 Porsche 911 Turbo (930) for under £50k at £47,500. There were several more expensive cars, and dearer ones often make more sense based on the cost to professionally restore rough examples, but if you’re a DIY restorer looking for an apparently complete example to play with, this one may be worth a look.
While there is no real detail in the ad other than it is an American import of an originally German-market Porsche 930 from January 1984, and some of the pics show it needs cosmetic assistance at the very least, it seems a complete car in running order with an MOT, the correct Recaro sports seats and all the right bits apparently intact.
Porsche 930 asking prices soared well over the £100k mark for cars like this in good condition during the market boom of 2012-2015, but they have eased in recent years. Of course, a spotless and unrestored 930 in original condition still commands serious money and is a wonderful thing, but the perception that a 4-speed 3.3-litre 930 in honest condition should command a price equivalent to several similarly well preserved standard 911s of the same vintage was a bit of a worry at the time. It’s good to see prices edging back towards reality and keeping these cars accessible for people to use and enjoy.
Having driven many standard and modified 930s over the years, I lean towards the upgraded cars, as a modern turbocharger, new CDI box and updated fuel injection with the right changes to the chassis and running gear bring the car to life. That said, getting a 930 or later 964 Turbo running properly is really the key to maximum enjoyment, so it is critical to get these cars to a K-Jet expert.
Only those with a detailed knowledge of this system who have the specialist equipment required to properly diagnose K-Jet injection should adjust the system on a 930 or 911 SC of the period, where the running condition is critical to avoid engine issues. I don’t work for JZM Porsche, but, if K-Jet was a concern, I would send my car to Steve McHale at JZM. Steve’s expertise on K-Jet systems and the workshop diagnostics going back to the early days of Bosch injection is second to none.
Anyone looking for a spotless 930 with mega provenance to cherish for posterity is not going to be interested in something like this. But, at under £50k and assuming the shell is not a disaster, this Porsche 911 Turbo for sale on eBay could be the base for something special without paying silly premiums for a car you ultimately want to chop and change.
The price, LHD and current GBP exchange rates may make this attractive to European buyers, but we will see how long the ad lasts before coming down. The ad text is below – I have nothing whatsoever to do with this other than it popped up on my radar and was worth a mention. The car is in Preston, UK.
1984 Porsche 911 930 Turbo for sale
Guards Red with black leather. Electric windows, sunroof. Registered January 1984. US import originally built to German spec. MOT until September 2019. US CarFax report available. Porsche spec printout available. Very solid car which requires some cosmetic attention. Trade Sale.
I supplied an agreed insurance valuation for a nice 1982 Porsche 911 SC yesterday. It was a bittersweet moment for the owner: the valuation was for more than he was thinking, but our valuation discussion was a precursor to the impending sale of the car later this year.
The owner had spent a small fortune on the car in the last two years, including £8k with Historika on replacing the suspension and brakes, plating and powder coating the parts that would be re-used and fitting a lot of new parts. He spent over £2k plus materials on the usual rust repairs and then another £2k with Autofarm on a service plus underbody steam clean and waxoyl rust inhibitor treatment.
Add another £2200 on a gearbox rebuild, a bit more on SSIs and you’re getting up for £15k spent on the SC in recent years, so the car is now just about done and in better condition than the average SC of a similar age. Having done all that work, why sell now?
“Since I got it I’ve poured money into it, just short of full restoration, but I’m a new dad with another on the way and thought I could be one of the young IB crowd that could keep the car through kids. Turns out it’s harder than I thought.
“Recent new car seat rules are the killer: Rear facing to 15 months and then some sort of booster until they are quite old. I’m heading towards two kids under two: the SC is a third car and the Mrs wants something she can enjoy also.”
Kids and old Porsches go together like cheeseburgers
Having been through this whole thing when my kids were little, I did the same thing any 911 guy would do and told him to keep the SC and get a Polo or something to run the kids around in. I kept my 911s right through having little kids and wouldn’t dream of selling an air-cooled car just because kids came along, albeit I would be lying if I said it was always easy.
I’ve done the daily school run for at least one child over the last eighteen years and the 911 was always a popular choice when my kids were small. Many nursery pickups were done in the SC despite the mums’ cautioning that “the Porsche will have to go now you have three.” Err, no. I just bought a 5-door Polo and ran that when I didn’t want feet scratching the SC’s leather seatbacks. ‘Shoes off in dad’s car’ was the order of the day.
Child seats in the 20th Century
When I was a kid in the 1970s, there were six children in my family (Irish) and my aunt lived nearby, with three kids and no car. We had a Peugeot 504 Family estate: three rows of seats and not a belt to be seen. All thirteen of us would regularly pile into the Peugeot to head off to my grandmother’s.
Years later, I had my own kids and the child seat laws were a little more rigorous. I did my best to fit proper Porsche seats into the 911 SC Cabriolet I had at the time and the best option was the Porsche Prince seat: a drop-in insert that fitted coupe rear seat wells but struggled with the Cabriolet’s more upright seat backs. Eventually, I either took just one in the front in the Prince or on a Porsche booster, two in the back using the normal lap belts, three using a combination of both or they all stayed at home. My wife has never been one for old Porsches, so no need to take her along…
EU/UK Child Seat Laws 2019
Don’t take the following as full legal advice, as I am not an expert and I accept no liability for you not doing your own research! However, according to a quick look at RoSPA (The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents) and the RAC, the current child seat laws seem to break down like this:
Children must use a rear-facing seat until they’re 15 months old. Rear facing seats must not be used in front if there is an active airbag on the passenger side of the car.
Once your child gets to 15 months old, their neck is deemed strong enough to go in a front facing seat, which must be mounted using ISOFIX mounts or a diagonal seat belt. Kids aged 12 or older or those who are taller than 135cm do not need to use a child seat. Children under 12 years old or shorter than 135cm must use a child seat.
Kids over 12 years old or more than 135cm tall must wear a seat belt. Those weighing more than 22kg and taller than 125cm can use a backless booster seat. For smaller children, a high-backed booster seat (like the Porsche ‘Plus’ below) is recommended, as a booster cushion alone will not protect them in a side impact. A child aged three or older may use an adult seat belt if making an ‘unexpected but necessary journey’ over a short distance.
Child Seats versus older Porsches
There are EU requirements laws relating to seat approval which apply to seats made after March 1, 2017 and you should read up on these. Seats manufactured before this date can still be used based on the previous legislation, so let’s assume that your actual seat ticks all the legal boxes.
The only option if your child is fifteen months or younger is a rear facing seat. My experience says that there is no hope of safely fitting one of these into the back of a Ferry-era Porsche, therefore it has to go in the front and the car has to be fitted with no active airbag.
If you have an air-cooled 911 (964 or 993) with a non-switchable airbag, then you need to take the bag out (good luck with that) or you are using another car. Anyone in pre-airbag models is sitting pretty: none of my three Porsches have airbags. 996 and later 911s have a bit more space to play with so most solutions should be OK in there, but you may still struggle with rear legroom/footroom.
Over fifteen months, you can get them in forward facing seats. If you have an older 911 coupe, then there are a few options for forward-facing seats in the back. The Maxi-Cosi Rodi XP has worked well for some and the Porsche Prince is one I recommend. The Prince was made by Britax Römer for Porsche (I had both Römer- and Porsche-badged examples) and works with a seat back and detachable “table”, pressed into the seat back using the seat belt.
Now for a cautionary note. You will love the Prince as it opens up a whole world of car fun with the kids and seems to look cool in situ: it has a very Porsche-like appearance. The table top is also a great place for their head to lie on when they want to have a sleep. However, I had two kids in Prince seats and I can’t say either of them were overly enamoured with them.
Orla G in a Porsche Prince child seat (911 SC Cabriolet)
The Porsche Prince seat is a bit claustrophobic – especially in the back of a Cabriolet – and a right faff to fit with anything other than diagonal inertia-reel seat belts, which my Cab did not have. Be prepared for your kids to hate these seats and keep your cool if that is the case. You don’t have to sit in them and mum’s/dad’s “other car” is quieter with better seats and probably decent air con too. Don’t expect miracles straight away.
A tired Ciara G about to have a snooze in the SC at the Stamford Hall VW Show
I occasionally used these seats without the table when my kids were bigger and they were happier like this but, while the Prince variants worked quite well, they were not perfect. A hardback Audi front-facing seat (pic above) that also had a lap table, which I used in the front of the SC, had height-adjustable clips on either side of the backrest to take the shoulder belt at a nice angle and all three daughters were happiest in this. I was perhaps happier with the risks of using a less than optimal seat than you might be – I never went flat out anywhere with the kids in the car – but it will be up to you to decide whether it fits your comfort zone.
Child Seat Summary
The upshot is that, if you only have one child to move, then anything is possible and it should not be too much of a problem. If you have two to move, then it gets interesting: especially if the Mrs wants to come too. That said, if your old Porsche is a third car and either of the other two work for moving kids, then I don’t see why the Porsche has to go. Kids don’t stay kids forever. Note also that whatever cash you get for your Porsche car will disappear in a heartbeat and getting back into one will be a lot more expensive down the road. “Don’t sell your dream,” as my friend Leonard very wisely told me.
I understand why the SC owner is putting his car up for sale, but I still think it’s a mistake to sell due to kids. Macan and Cayenne took off because they are great for moving kids if you simply must have a Porsche badge, but they are no substitute for the old ones. I did 50k miles including countless school runs in my Cayenne S. I eventually sold it, but still have the classics.
What about you: how are you moving your brood? Let me know in the comments – happy to add any appropriate pics to the piece.
Featured photo courtesy of Greig M – many thanks!
Ferdinand blogs my freelance adventure with Porsche at the centre. To support the blog or engage with me in other ways, you can:
Following a retreat from the peak prices of 2015/16, the classic Porsche market worked hard to regain some momentum and settle back into a groove through 2017/18. Auction results for the last twelve months show how few really rare Porsches came to market through 2018, as many sat on their collections awaiting a more optimistic picture.
The truth was that things were not all bad and the lack of product may have helped what was offered for sale to do well: surprisingly well, in some cases. Here are the top five results from auction sales in 2018.
1: Porsche 959 Dakar – sold for $5,945,000
It’s hard to believe that the ex-1985 Dakar Porsche 959 was the headline auction result for the entire Porsche marque in 2018. This car was one of the first factory Porsche race cars I truly got close to, as it lived at Tuthills when I bought my first 911 and began spending time there. I enjoyed many hours in and around this factory rally car back in the day.
The car was offered at RM Sotheby’s groundbreaking Porsche-only sale at the Porsche Experience Centre in Atlanta. Truly selling to the converted, the Dakar 959 blew pre-auction predictions to pieces and sold for almost twice the low estimate, coming in just under $6 million including premium. A superb result for a factory rally car that failed to finish the Dakar.
Porsche 550As dominated the big-money Porsche sales through 2018. With Le Mans competition history including fifth overall and second in class and a class win at the 1958 Nurburgring 1000kms, chassis number 550A-0145 was one of the most desirable examples ever to come up for sale.
Offered by Bonhams at its 2018 Scottsdale sale, the car sold to an American collector for a world record price of $5.17 million including premium.
pic courtesy of Bonhams
3: 1957 Porsche 550A – sold for $4,900,000
Number three on our list of top five Porsche auction sales in 2018 is another 550A, this time from 1957. Chassis number 550A-0116 was offered by RM Sotheby’s at the 2018 Monterey sale and a substantial Californian heritage did it no harm at all.
Leaving the Hollywood heart throbs to one side, Jack McAfee may be the number one name in vintage California Porsche history. McAfee’s Burbank dealership was home to an SCCA-winning 550A and this car was sold through the hallowed doors in February 1957. It was subsequently owned by several big names until a Freisinger restoration in the mid-1990s. The seller is hopefully delighted with a sale result of just under $5 million: within reach of the world record price set by chassis 0145.
4: Unraced 2007 Porsche RS Spyder – sold for $4,510,000
A fine Porsche RS Spyder race car sold by Goodings at its Pebble Beach sale took full advantage of the model’s exceptional profile in American racing history. RS Spyder 9R6.706 was the last of six carbon-bodied Porsche LMP2 prototypes manufactured for racing in 2007. Supplied new to a race team on the US east coast, the car was subsequently not raced by its Floridian buyers. Instead, it made its way into private hands.
The unraced prototype was one of three RS Spyders owned by the seller and was the first RS Spyder ever to be offered at auction. Few true Porsche rarities have emerged in the 21st century, but there can be no doubt that this is one of them. It sold for $4.51 million including premium.
pic courtesy of Gooding and Company
5: 1955 Porsche 550A – sold for $4,455,000
Last but not least in our run down of top five Porsche auction sales results for 2018 is this 1955 Porsche 550A, sold by Gooding and Company at its 2018 Pebble Beach event.
This 550A had been with its owner for more than twenty years and was offered as part of an impressive collection of highly original sports cars. Chassis 550-0053 was a matching numbers example with plenty of history including a recent visit to four-cam guru, Jeff Adams. Presented in beautifully sympathetic condition, it sold for $4.455 million including premium.
pic courtesy of Gooding and Company
The best of the rest – and what’s to come in 2019
Only a handful of Porsche cars broke the $3 million barrier in 2018 and there was a sizeable gap from the headline sales to the best of the rest. It’s clear that storied race cars pre-1970 remain of interest, including 550s and 718s, and there is also a market for low mileage rare 911s.
What will tickle the market’s fancy in the twelve months to come? There are some trends at work right now that should continue through 2019. The lowest mileage air-cooled road cars – rare ones, mind – are likely set for a safe run this year. Front-engined cars have softened a touch in recent months, but the nicer models are probably also good news.
The lion’s share of what does well this year will hinge on what collectors decide to send to market. It will be interesting to see what happens at this year’s early sales: roll on Amelia Island.
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